Funny Cars running for nothing... Selling ourselves short!

running for nothing

we have been battling this for years.I run with a small group of guys in the pa nj area and we get $250.00 for 2 passes witch is nothing.In 2009 we are going to ask for $500.00 for 2 passes,weather we get it is a different story.But i always said ,if we can get fire to come out of our pipes,they will book us.I was testing my car one night and had it a little fat...we had fire out the pipes 5 feet in the air and the crowd went crazy...it ran like a turd but the people liked it......thats what im trying to say

 

well that sucks,..thanks for the tease.....

Guess I will just have to put a nostalgia BB/funny car
together next year,.. Nawwww,..I like my injected Vega.


Vic

 

running for nothing

Mike,

If you do not mind me asking, what type of numbers are you and your associates running? 1/8th mile times?

Thanks,

Jagger

 

1.02 60 foot 4.30 in 1/8 and about 6.90 to 7.00 with the old motor....we are having a problem with the car driving through the converter...its leaving but not locking up

 

Snowbirds

TOP ALCOHOL DRAGSTER
Top Alcohol Dragsters can cover the quarter-mile in 5.2 seconds at speeds in excess of 270 mph! NHRA rules apply. Eight car qualified field. Two qualifying runs required. Rules here. Rules/schedule subject to change.
Winner: $5000
Runner up: $1750
Semi: $750
First round loss: $500
Tech card: Free car & driver plus two crew (2 qualifying runs required.)
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
OUTLAW PRO MOD
Outlaw Pro Mod’s are a crowd favorite! Long smoky burnouts and quarter-mile speeds of 220 mph! Eight car qualified field. Two qualifying runs required.
Rules here. Rules/schedule subject to change.
Winner: $5000
Runner up: $2000
Semi: $1500
First round loss: $1000
Tech card: Free car & driver plus two crew (pre-enter, two Saturday qualifying runs required.)
must cost more to tow a PM to FL
or maybe it costs more to run them?

 

lets see, this race will payout for all promods and tad $24,250.00 seems like alot, but wait. if you charge an extra 10 dollars thats only 2425 people you need in the stands. or ONLY 5000 people at 5 bucks set aside for the racers in this group. now wheres this being held? you mean to say they cant draw 5000 spectators? how generous of the promoter. the tad cars, first round loosers make a whole 250 per qualifying pass. I wonder what # 9-10 get? oh yeah, the shaft

 

4.30's

Mike,

This is kind of what I am talking about. It sounds like you are putting on a good show. I can tell you that in my stable of cars, the teams that run 4.10's - 4.30's should make anywhere between $500 - $600 a pass. $250 is horrible money for two passes. I ask more then that for rain money. I know you need to do what you need to do, but when other tracks find out you make two passes for $250, they WILL NOT pay you anymore then that. It also makes it real tough for other promotions (Like Earth Shaking Entertainment) to get hired at these tracks because they are used to paying far too little. You have some good tracks with money in PA, they can afford to spend a little money. I think you are worth more then $250 for two runs at an 1/8th mile track. Good luck in 09'.

Jagger

 

snowbirds

In case you didn't get it, this is the actual payout for Bradenton,FL Snowbirds next month.It's been like this for several years. Since they are a Div 2 race in Feb, they know what divisional payout is. It used to be expenses for some FL sunshine but now it doesn't even pay for tow expenses.You have to wonder,if they didn't have a divisional there, would the payout still be so top heavy or would it resemble the pro mod payout.

 

I have owned a alcohol car of some sort for probably about 20 years (TAD, TAFC, and now a Pro Mod). I also am one of four owners of a small track here in Albuquerque New Mexico. I feel that I have a little knowledge from both sides of the fence now.

The racers are killing match racing themselves. Starting in 2009 we will not book any more match races into our track. Why??? Because my partners didn’t feel like we got our monies worth. Racers today believe all that is required of them is to do a burn out, stage their car, and run a rich, lazy car down a race track. Times have changed guys… you now have bracket cars running in the low sevens and high sixes who will PAY to play. Running in the 7’s or high 6’s ain’t getting it done and will not get you booked at a track. Good associations or clubs such as CIFCA have been forced to drop their index. CIFCA’s new index will be 7.20 this year. We will book CIFCA at two events and they will bring 10to 12 cars. The cars are professional and the teams are fan friendly and they put on a very good show for the money. They are not getting $500 a pass. We will bring in three other clubs this year as well. They will have a qualifying format and will run good numbers or they will not qualify. Let me repeat that... "They will run good numbers or they will not qualify". We like that. We feel we will get a good show for our money.

Tracks are having a hard time right now. We want the biggest bang for our buck too. We have to, or we won’t survive. The difference between owning a racecar and owning a race track is simple. I HAVE to make a profit at the race track to keep the gates open. I have a racecar for fun and enjoyment.

I copied this from the Nitro Mater message board. Greg Duffield is almost spot on with his post. I don’t know if he still owns a track or not but the numbers are almost identical to our numbers here in Albuquerque. We do not get 5000 spectators. A typical weekend will bring us 1600. A weekend will cost us about $18,000 to $20,000. What is not in this fugure is the running cost of the track such as insurance, asssociation fees, grounds keepers, track managment, wear and tear on our equipment, aspault life, rodents who eat everthing in site including all the rubber lines on our brand new ATV's wiring on our rescue truck, ect. ect.

Here is Greg's post…..

“I can speak from experience on this subject. Let me just apologize ahead of time if this is somewhat of a jumble and incoherent. I'm dead tired and really need to get some sleep.
There are a few factors that come in to play. First, your location is a big deal. You need to have a good population to draw from, because you aren't going to get the same people every weekend, so you need enough people within the area that as you draw from a few here, a few there, you end up averaging out a decent number of spectators, and specators are what pay the bills.

Test-N-Tune night: These nights are when tracks can really earn some serious bank. You figure most of them get around 100-200 cars on average, with no payout, and the insurance for these nights is actually cheaper. You may have $700-$1,000 in labor, about $200 in insurance, around $200 in VHT and methanol, $175 in electricity, and $40 in water. Let's say you have 500 spectators at $5, and then it's $10 to race, you should gross anywhere from $3,500-$5,000 between gate fees and tech fees, plus somewhere around $1,000 to $1,500 in concessions, so just add those up and take out your expenses. You should be able to get about 30 of these events a year, depending on weather.

For most "average" tracks, test-n-tune nights are when you can actually profit the most. You can take in a ton of money on big money bracket races, divisionals, and big heads-up events, but you have a ton of outlay between payouts, marketing, labor, insurance and supplies. Insurance for an actual event is going to run around $600-$800. Divisionals and national events are much much more expensive. I've heard insurance for a national event is around $15,000 (however, I've also heard IHRA tracks will net around $300k for a national event and NHRA tracks net around $1 million).

One thing to also keep in mind about expenses is, unless you have a mortgage on the business, there aren't many fixed expenses. They are all in proportion to how much you race. Some bigger tracks have full time staff, but for the smaller tracks, you're only going to have labor, major utility usage, and supply usage when you race. So you just have to make sure when you race that you make the most of each event so that it can at least cover it's own expenses.

If you are running a bracket event you have to be able to draw enough cars to make it worth while. Anything less than 30 cars in each class, and you are going to be lucky to break even. Heads up events are going to run you between $4,000 and $10,000 depending on what type of show you are putting on. What I'm talking about in regards to heads up events are like Pro Mods, Outlaw Pro Stock, Fuel Altereds, etc. So you have to bring in a lot of specators to make something like that work. It's not that you can't make money at those events, it's just that, depending on the event, you don't start making money until you have about 800 people through the gate. 800 people doesn't sound like a lot, but it's much more than you think, and it can be hard to pull them in depending on the location and your marketing. A lot of times people perceive a crowd to be much larger than it is. If you go to a race, and you think "man there must be 3,000 people here", chances are there's probably only half that amount. I don't know what it is, but it can fool you. So just because it appears that a track has a ton of people there, doesn't necessarily make it a gold mine.

A track can be very profitable if run right, and I actually think when the economy is tough, there's no reason for a track to really suffer in my opinion. This should be the time when they thrive the most. People may be more limited in their money, but if you are charging more at the gate than what a husband and wife can go out to dinner and a movie for, then you are probably going to lose their business. The biggest mistake I've seen track owners do recently is go up on prices at the gate. When the economy is struggling, raising your gate fee is the WORST decision you can make in my opinion. If you are putting on an event, it costs you no more money to have 1,000 people out there, as it does to have 100 people. You still have the same money going out on labor, insurance and supplies. So what do you have to do to get 1,000 people? I don't care if you have to let them in for free. The more people you have, the more people will be there to race their cars (and pay tech fees), the more people will be there to buy your food. The more people will be there to tell their friends about what a great time they had at your track, and bring them out with them the next time.”

Like I said our little track almost mirrors Greg's. I quess what I'm trying to say is that there is two sides to this. I race my car for the fun of playing with the machine. When it stops being fun I will quit. I did not have fun running in the NHRA any more. So, I quit. If running the Pro Mod stops being fun, I will quit. I am about ready to quit running this damn track!!!! It ain't fun.....

 

Thanks Lawren,
Your post gives a little better perspective from both sides.

If you have cars that are sand bagging and just showing up to stage,
and then abort a run just to get money,..well YOU know who they are, do not
have them come back,..There are plenty of other cars/drivers/owners that want to run balls out anytime, everytime, and all the time. thats what fans that pay to get in came to see,..FULL PULLS,...
I think from the best bang for the buck perspective is all about two things,..
1. filling the seats with lots of people
2. and getting the baddest cars on the planet to show up to run. (funny cars)

I guess its all about a promoters logic and track owners wants that make a good show a succesful one.

A. did the promoter advertise enough to get the people in the seats, and well in advance too,..not the same week or 2 days before the event.
2 or 3 weeks inadvance advertising usually works, and 2 or 3 times a day on a radio spot, or even local Tv spot,..yes that cost money, but your in the promoting or race track bizness,..YOU have to make these kind of moves for it to work.,..

B. The track GATE,..Screw this $20, $30 admission fee,..remember its all about
filling the seats,..not turning them away,..make it $10 admission or
$25.00 a car load,..besides dont most tracks charge $5.00 to park or something now too help with the gate money ???,..loose that fee too.

C. consessions,..WHY are these places charging upwards of $6.00 for a freaking hotdog ????? should be a $1 or $2 tops,...you would sell more of them to just the average 14 yrs old and youger crowd for sure.
Beer,..well I suppose the cost of a beer is just dedicated to the alcoholics,
unless you lowered the prices to to get more to drink beer, but then you have to deal with the isolated problems from drinking too much, and then also the risk of those leaving that are intoxicated.

d. The track itself,..dont scimp out on the track prep,..
THIS IS MY LIFE, and my car thats trying to go down your track.
If you have street tire cars running,..run them first then prep the track, so you dont waste your VHT,..A car running 12 seconds and slower dont need that kind of prep,..AND also,..spray past half track and out the back door,
thats where anything 750-800 hp and more get into problems, let alone 1500-2000 hp cars,..

GETTING THE SHOW,..TO SHOW UP.
1. The show IS all the cars that the people showed up to see, not the track
do a little research on the cars before you start wanting just anybody to show,..Cars and the drivers build a reputation for things they do and have done,.cars that tend to have problems on a regular basis wether its oiling the track, not being able to fire the car up at the line, or basically dont have their act together are not a show that is good publicity,..NO CIRCUS ACTS.

2. Money,.if the money is good and spread out, everybody gets a little,2
run minimun to collect any money to begin with. Make the payout based on performance, or advancement in roounds, or make it an all out show for the purse, Then if the cars want the monies thered be no sand bagging.

3,..Booked in show,..
you have a handful of cars in each of the 4 headliner classes,..
Gauranteed money but only w/2 run minimun to collect the bear minimun,
Deciding on how much to pay depends on what cars you are going to have run and what car it is,..either everyone in that class gets a piece of the action, or its about favortism torwads the famous car that people came out to see,..Thats for the promoter and car owners to decide, or the even if the club/association already has a an idea what it will cost the promoter to have thier cars run at that particuler track.

It would be intersting to find out what Bucky`s plans are, and how he will run spokane,..Bucky knows what it takes to run high dollar cars for peanuts, and I am sure he will not scimp on any payouts to put on the best show that he can, he knows what the costs are.

The other groups that run as a group or club, well they set their own rates, or border for what they can get,..just dont sell yourselfs short, because how you guys sell yourselfs also kinda sets the market for the rest that know that we cant run for them peanuts.

You want to run for peanuts and get treated like pieces of shit,..go Big show racing,..this is why Nostalgia racing is getting so big and the match races are coming back,..because alot of people are tired of the freaking Circus
that the BIG SHOW provides and they want to get back to having fun.
Its all a matter of opinions and actual objectives of each and every car driver, and car owner where you want to be 5, or even 10 years from now.

DONT SELL OUT,..thats already in place for all the bIG sHOW lOGOS.


There is a meeting at Randy Parkers on November 14Th,..??????
I had no idea untill 2 days ago,..I wonder what it takes to be apart of that ???....
Maybe someone --- can enlighten us,.. that want to run, and be apart of it, let alone apart of anything that is helping, and reastablishing the return of any, and all Nostalgia Drag racing back to the Northwest.

Vic

 

here in spokane the progas association "rented" the track for 4 bracket races. it was not a cheap indevor. the lease from the county, insurance, paying people to work, etc. that said they ended up with an extra40k at the end of it all. mind you no big show cars. If you can only draw 1600 spectators, you must live in a low population area or do a poor job of advertising or public relations. anyway thats still a 8,000 payout for the match race. dont try bring in 20 cars. and to this myth that fast bracket cars draws the same as a funny running the same et. you wish. NOTHING draws crowds like a funny. ok, nitro diggers. and they dont match race for cheap. 30k each and if you are worried about lack of performance, set up payout on a performance curve. woodburn and others have done this for years. seems to work botom line, I get paid to do the wild thing.

 

Vic, I will try and answer some of your post...

a. Yes, we advertise on radio. Usually about a week in advance. Heavy on Thursday and Friday. Remember most people can hardly remember what day it is, so doing it two weeks in advance is a waste of money. TV cost out weighs ROI. Unless you can seat 5000 to 10,000 people TV is not cost effective. Our track will only seat 2500. We are working with an advertising agency this year that will include some TV time. It will take an additional 350 customer to break even on the cost.

b. We don't charge to park. That would piss off our customers. WOW...If we went to $10 we would have to bring in double the crowd to make the same money. Only problem is we would increase cost to operate. More ticket booth people, more parking attendents, more trash, more security, and on and on. ROI drops significantly. Don't think we will be doing that any time soon.

c. We don't charge those prices. Attended a race a Texas Raceway and they didn't charge those prices either. Best damn hamberger I have had in a while too. Our track stopped selling beer a long time ago. Why, insurance cost, needed more security, drunks ran off families.

d. I have to laugh at this one. Not laugh at you Vic, but laugh at how hard it is to run street cars with cars that have slicks. There is not a track around that can run the two classes together without having problems. Street cars don't like VHT because their tires are too hard and its like running on ice for them. So after a while the street cars RIP UP ALL OF THE RUBBER and we get bald spots. Then here comes this big hp car and he can't make it off the starting line. We bring out the track dragger and fix the track and all is well until the street cars RIP UP ALL OF THE RUBBER again. The problem is we have A LOT more street cars than cars with slicks. Vicous cycle. BTW we went through 10 drums of VHT this year and the stuff cost about $750 a drum and we went through 5 drums of Alcohol at $250 a drum. Next year VHT is going to over $800 a drum. If we sprayed at every T-N-T to the finish line we would have went through 20 and 10. We don't have a fix for this.... If you feel you are in danger then I suggest you attend a bracket race and pay the entry fee for a class and use the time trials session as your test session. We do that for some 10.5 Mustangs here. It works out pretty well.

This will address the last part of your post. It is a lot less work and risk to do a bracket race or T-N-T. A typical bracket race will net us $5000 to $7000. a typical T-N-T will net us $2500 to $6500. Our best show car (Funnycar) to date neted us $9700. A lot of work and risk for that extra money. We went in the RED on two of our shows this year. If you guys haven't noticed, getting a match race is getting harder and harder. FYI... demanding more money.... it could put the final nail in the coffin for you and the end result is you will have no place to play.

Guys, I'm not trying to be an ass. But now that I have been on both sides of the fence it has became a little clearer for me. I am just trying to pass it along to you. Enjoy that you can have a machine that is challenging and fun to play with. You didn't build it to make money with did you? If you did, you better find a good marketing partner. Bottom line is, the tracks are in the business to make a profit. Profit is getting harder and harder to get. When I got involved with this track I thought we had ALL of the answers. I was wrong.

Bucky is obviously a good business man. I will be willing to bet he will be surprised at how complexed and difficult of a business a drag strip is to run. I know I was.

 

Ok Mark I will answer your post now..

Yep the match race would be $8000. but you forgot the Jet Cars - $6000
Bracket racers purse - $3800.

If those guys were making $10,000 a race on bracket racing then they were doing something right. We are not able to do that. Other tracks in the area are not doing that either. Guess they have the Midas touch huh.

 

Basicly not to start WW3 east coast match racing is down,then in what part of the country has a healthier match race environment for both the alky cars and the blown altereds.
Rick

 

So there you have it, the moral of the story,..
You are only going to get out, what you put in.

I build a race car,..I am going to put good qaulity new parts on it,
REASON,.. so the car stays running and doesnt get shut off at the line, or blows up causing down time.

Or,
I only have X amount of cash to build with, and put the car together with
2nd hand parts, and it runs, but is a constant neusence, and has problems.

Track scenerio
I have a track and a promoter, I know it costs this amount of money to open the gates, pay my employees, pay for advertising, have the required ample amount of money to pay the headliner cars,ETC,....BUT, I only want 2,000 spectators to come threw the gate, so I will only spend this X amount of money on advertising and only advertise for two days because no one will remember the dates anyways, and we will just be another hit and miss show.

OR
I am a track owner/promoter and I am going to spend what ever it takes to bring in the many masses of people that are out there to be reached, and get everyone, (not just a select few), FULLY AWARE of the great show we will be having, coming up in a few weeks, and expect to see 5 to 10,000 people or more, and do are jobs to best marketable ability to MAKE this a memorable event that people will talk about for weeks and leave them wondering when the next show, or program wil be back again, so they will return.

It costs more to run a track these days, and it costs more to run a fuel or alky car,...so where/when/who decides to start giving out more money back to the racers (THE SHOW), and where will the track be able to come up with the extra cost to have the show.....

If you bill it small,..the return is small,..if you bill and book it BIG,..well
I think that is all self explanatory.

I guess it is all about how much a track/promoter wants to make it.
But that still doesnt change the fact that the cars that will be there to BE THE SHOW, expect to get paid, and get paid well,..


Vic

 

participate

Thank you Lawren for putting up some real information from the "other" side.The best thing about this site is the information and comments for the most part,help keep the eyes open. Maybe some other track managers from other parts of the country will add to this topic. I hope everyone will realize that not all venues are the same in participation or need. What will fill the grandstands in one place won't work at another.

 

spokane has a larger track. it can seat thousands. the area has about 1/2 million to draw from within 100 miles. we had 250 bracket cars, plus 400 streetcars running later in the nite. you booked f/c, jets and promods? you cannot book that many different cars for the same weekend. unless you can get about 10k people. this year a small track had to drop to 4 f/c to break even. it can only hold about a thousnd. if at that. they were trying to bring 8pm & 8f/c. foolish at best.

 

Mark I didn't mean it could not be done. If my post came off as being a smart ass it was not meant that way. With our economy we can't do those kind of numbers here in the suronding area. As i stated before, Greg's track seems to mirror our track. When did I say we booked FC- Jets and Pro Mods at the same event. Please re-read my post.



Bill thanks for the respectful response. I am just sharing with you all what works and doesn't work here in Albuquerque.

Vic, sounds like you should get your check book out and buy my track. You seem to have all the answers.

We are very happy with our 2009 special events schedule. We have Jets, CIFCA, Nostalgia Altereds, Southwest Superchargers, and R.O.D.S. entertaining our customers. If we fill the gransstands with 2500 customers we will make some money. Our bread and butter comes from our local racers. We will continue to support our local racers and hope to build a new track in the next couple of years. Unless Vic buys us out of course

I'm done....

 

OHHH noooooo,..I think I would rather stay here in the Northwest and help
contribute in anyway I can to help preserve, and keep the nostalgia movement moving forward,.
.and just for the info gods, I am far from where I would like to be, as far as being involved with the nostalgia up here.
They ol saying,.. if I only would have known then,.. Like I know now.
You have to think BIG PICTURE, because its all about the future.
get busy living,.or get busy dying.
We need to keep the current Tracks operating,
.......or they will be gone someday.
I dont think any promoter in their right mind would allow 200 bracket cars in for the same event as a fuel funny, or altered, or promod, and digger show
considering with the 4 headliner classes that would be enough to fill the time slots.
and exhibition show...add something else like a top sportsman, or top dragster, or nostalgia eliminator,.or how about PRO COMP,..No index.

Vic