nozzles in the intake runner

Discussion in 'PSI Superchargers Tech Questions' started by Will Hanna, Feb 18, 2009.

  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    6,697
    Likes Received:
    127
    i'm not a head porter, so i don't know what does and doesn't hurt flow, but how much does the nozzle sticking down into the intake runner affect flow? Or does sticking it further into the runner help atomize the fuel enough to offset losses in flow?
     
    #1
  2. GregM784

    GregM784 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    918
    Likes Received:
    13
    Down nozzles. They rock. Keep them as close to the valve as possible. The longer you wait to put fuel in, the smoother the air flow will be. It isn't so much the disruption from the nozzle, but the displacement of air from the fuel.
     
    #2
  3. jonimus333

    jonimus333 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nozzel placement

    Would it be better to run the nozzles in the injector, and then the down nozzles in the head and skip the ones in the ports of the intake. Maybe run one of the nozzles with check balls and springs. and the other one with just a check valve @ a lower pressure setting? Don,t know but have been thinking about this awhile Thanks Don.
     
    #3
  4. aj481x

    aj481x Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    18

    I talked to Carl Fultz (CFE) about this exact question, and he thinks that the nozzle would not be a big issue, but probably more so the fuel disrupting the air flow.
     
    #4
  5. Woodchip

    Woodchip Top Alcohol Dragster

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    429
    Likes Received:
    0

    if i recall I don't think that option is allowed in the rulebook

    (edit) nope it is not.

    page 147 of my 05 rulebook

     
    #5
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  6. SoDak

    SoDak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,524
    Likes Received:
    3
    Woodchip, I think they mean in the head port, between the valve guide and the valve head (the long side of the port) vs in the chamber. I'm not aware of any constant flow fuel injection directly in the chamber.


    Down nozzles sure are popular in NA motors. I've heard alot of good HP gains doing it in NA motors, but why isn't it more popular in blown alky???
     
    #6
  7. jonimus333

    jonimus333 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    port nozzels.

    Beside the amount of fuel needed, Why wouldn,t the A- Fuel, and Top Fuel cars Run 3 nozzels in the intake instead of the 2 in the head, 1 in the intake and the injector. Just asking . I still would like to try a down nozzle or 2 in the head. I heard the same thing about nozzle size, but if you eliminated the 8 in the intake and put them in the head port, you would still have the same area, wouldn't you? Maybe it is air flow. I guess I would need to see the air flow around the nozzle in the port. I ran 2 nozzles in the intake manifold port in my Psi Motor. Plus dribblers. But I am not a fuel flow specialist. I hope this make a little sence Any one can e-mail me about this anytime. Sure would like to know more. Maybe a dyno pull or two would prove something. Thanks Don donimus333@yahoo.com
     
    #7
  8. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

    Joined:
    May 13, 2003
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    22
    Fireball; you're easy.......Once upon a time there was a guy named Santos who had some kids, they went racin'!
    Hoses OUTSIDE the head w/ 90* nozzles in cool air.

    Now I remember around "84-85 when down nozzles hit Pomona on alky cars. It looked like an Indian uprising, I never saw so many pioneer's with arrows in their a$$!:D

    We've worked so hard to get colder fuel into the cylinders, ask yourself if pre-heating in fuelrails with alky is a plus?
    If it helps, pour a cup of nitro and a cup of alky on the ground at the same time and see which one is gone first!
    Now of course, I'm just a welder, but I love barnyard logic games. :)
     
    #8
  9. GregM784

    GregM784 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    918
    Likes Received:
    13
    Just an FYI, i run a blown small chevy. Alcohol. I run hat nozzles and down nozzles. No ports.
     
    #9
  10. Woodchip

    Woodchip Top Alcohol Dragster

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    429
    Likes Received:
    0
    ****deleted ****
     
    #10
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  11. secondwindracing

    secondwindracing top alcohol

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    6
    #11
  12. TOL

    TOL Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    17

    Try to get the fuel administerd in a direction and location somewhat parallel to the highest air velocity gradient(s) in your ports. The little nozzle protruberances themselves will have miniscule flow effects assuming blown alky ports of already suitable size (huge), but the delivery of liquid fuel (pattern/stream/shape/density/direction) willl have a significant effect not only on flow but also mixture preparation. You'll have to experiment with your combo........

    I like the idea of "down" delivery in NA applications, but it is not so relevant in blown/compressed applications.
     
    #12
  13. nitrohaulic

    nitrohaulic Bracket Racer

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe nitro won't equate but, I remember someone who ran a fuel engine the way they purchased it. They later found out the port nozzles were pointing back toward the blower and thought the last person accidentally did it. They said after turning them around, the engine never ran as well as it did, that they ended up pointing them back toward the blower, after which, it once again ran well.

    I believe Barry Paton posted here about pointing hat nozzles toward the butterflies?

    I know the question is about nozzle location and not which way it aims but, could atomization be more important than air flow in a blown engine? Aiming the fuel back into the air's path is obviously not going to do "smooth airflow" much good. Is that really what you need?
     
    #13
  14. jonimus333

    jonimus333 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    Messages:
    504
    Likes Received:
    0
    nozzels

    Bob, I wounder how much heat the fuel rails see, with alky flowing through them. I guess it would be from the oil temp. My intake and injector looks like the frosted mug of beer I got the other day. But it is something to think about.. Keep the ideas coming. I have everything from my A-fuel stuff to try it. Anyone else have any ideas. Thanks again Don
     
    #14
  15. secondwindracing

    secondwindracing top alcohol

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    6
    nitrohaulic, you are very correct I posted that about Berry, he is the one that told me to do this and yes it's the ticket..Dave
    www.myspace.com/daveloweswr
     
    #15
  16. crashly

    crashly Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    120
    Likes Received:
    1

    this is how i see it...

    with the down nozzel deal , there would have more fuel in a liquid state.. than a vapour, around the intake valve,
    even if the correct fuel rate was put into the engine, the liquid fuel may not burn as quick as the fuel vapour...

    the engine may 'seem lean" , but it has the right amount of fuel , but not all vapourized , and available to burn...

    there fore creating a very small window of tuning..

    yes, when the alky guys first fitted the down nozzels , most went slower, but i know of 1 guy that went quicker...

    this is his basic reasoning , due to the alky not fully turning into a vapour..

    cheers
     
    #16
  17. sean70ss

    sean70ss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2004
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    2
    hat nozzles

    So by pointing the nozzles toward the injector basically by doing that you would get better fuel atomization correct?

    Sean
     
    #17
  18. nitrohaulic

    nitrohaulic Bracket Racer

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right. It sounds like fuel would come out of the butterflies but, I'm told that it won't. Smash the fuel directly into the path of the incoming air. That's with a nitro engine that doesn't idle on it's hat.

    I've heard that alcohol cars usually idle on the hat, with the ports coming in?

    The advice I was getting ready to go on pertaining to a nostalgia nitro engine is to idle on ports for better cylinder to cylinder idle control, with the hats then coming in. Would that be harder on the blower, just as I read about people who keep their fuel on through the shutdown to lube the blower?
     
    #18
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  19. secondwindracing

    secondwindracing top alcohol

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    6
    thats why I run my pump saver back to the hat dis. block..Dave
     
    #19
  20. Bob Meyer

    Bob Meyer Comp Eliminator

    Joined:
    May 13, 2003
    Messages:
    736
    Likes Received:
    22
    Fuel through the top is what lubricates and seals the air from coming back up and keeps the rotors from heat swelling. (read - galling)
    You need a new advisor! Sorry........
     
    #20

Share This Page