valve keepers

are the round valve keepers better than the square ones i droped a valve this week and i was told that is why it happend i had the square

 

I'll bet it nipped the tip right off at the keeper groove, yep, thats the reason.
I cant believe there still offing them keepers and valves on unsuspecting racers, SHAME ON YOU DEALERS, just remember "KARMA" will get you too!

 

valve keeper

thats exactly where it brooke

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by outracer
Any suggestions on who has the best titanium valves ? Running Brad stage VI heads and been using Manton lash locks. Just broke valve under valve lock. And whats better radial groove or standard chevy groove. Thanks for any info.
This was the thred you missed or didn't pay attention too
The standard grove is why the valve broke under the lock,with the manthon lash caps they squeeze the valve till it snaps the tip off, the radial groove valve and lash cap are the cure for that problem,or go back to the reg. keepers and the old stile lash caps.
__________________

Gene Terenzio Sr. 144 BB/FC
When Your Hair Has Turned To Silver, You'll Have The Richest Head In Town

 

as I was told once..the square stuff has been around for many years with a lot of racers using them..just remember anything and everything will break...p.s what kind of blower are you running??
Dave
www.myspace.com/daveloweswr

 

I bought some Arias heads a few weeks ago that has one chamber all beat up because it dropped a exhaust valve, and guess what kind of locks it had. It broke the stem right at the bottom of the keeper groove. When I first saw these one piece lash locks I thought it would be the cats meow, but after what I've seen and heard I dont think I'll use them. Is it usually the ex. valve? What about the intakes? I know the exhaust valves usually dont have a problem with seperate lash caps wearing on the tips of the valve, so no problem using them there, but the shorter intake rocker moves across the tip alot more wearing the valve tip. Thats where the earlier Brad fat heads were nice with the .400 deep lash caps, they couldn't rock around on top of the tip.I've heard the Brad 6's have had alot of trouble because they went back to .250 tip. These 1 piece lash locks would solve the problem, but I'm scared to use them now.
I think the problem is, because the valve keeper groove doesn't have any pressure on it untill the valve is closed, and there is not a constant pressure on the keeper groove, any movement acts like a sledge hammer when the valve closes.
Does any one make a 1 piece lock with the radiased groove?

 

Locks

call us and give someone in the sales department your address and we will send a catalog from Manton Engineering, Manton Pushrods, Manton Rockerarm, and Williams Oil Pans

Noel Manton

 

ok... i'm confused

are these a good or bad thing? what are the pro vs cons? they look trick but i'm not educated enough about them. i've always run standard chevy groove, 10 degree locks with separate lash caps and NOT had problems? love to here what you guys are having GOOD luck with... and what problems some guys have had too.

and fwiw... i'm not looking for anyone to get bagged on... just trying to gain a little education. thanks in advance.

also like to here the good vs bad of radial and square grooves? and i've always considered the chevy groove to be the square groove... is this correct?

bill... sorry for the crappy luck man

 

Personal Preference

This type of lock has been used by thousands as far back as 1976.
Many racers prefer to use a standard valve lock and lash cap combination, which has its own problems, and many use other types of valve tip protection.

If you would like to get a better explanation, and a little education of how they work I invite you to call me during the week and I will spend as much time as you need. I detect a small amount of pre-determined conclusion on your part so I would ask that when if you do call that you try to have a positive open mine.

By the way we also manufacture valve locks and lash caps. Radial and Standard Bead. What ever you think you need, by way of valve train, we will be happy to design it, produce it, and sell it to you.

My preference is completely different than most.

Office: 951 674-2212
Cell: 951 415-7348

NOEL MANTON

 

Jeepers Keepers

Nole,
This is what I saw on the valves that broke on my brothers car, The keepers didn't touch each other when assembled there was about .005 to .010 gap in between them What i think happened was when the valve opened and closed with all the spring pressure we use (425 lb. on the seat 1200 lb opend) the locks start to try to close up the gap and squeeze the valve till it snaps off.

 

Noel, so you say there is no more incidence of breaking off the valve stem on titanium valves at the keeper groove with your lash-locks than with standard keeper setups?
Sincerly, Dale

 

Mr Manton

Hello Noel,

I myself would love to see you post your preference, findings and conclusions on the various systems for retaining a valve.

I assume some of what you would say in private could not be posted on the board since your competitors would probably be very interested in gaining some of your knowledge, that said if you could post what you feel confident is common knowledge within the valvetrain engineering community I am sure I could still learn from it.

Richard Gavle

 

Last weekend a broke a victovy titanium intake valve , at .125 under de locks groove , flush to the bottom of the locks . BAE V heads , 475 lbs seat press , roots . Yesterday evening , before installing the springs compressor to remove all valves , i took a small hammer and hit the top side of the retainer to make the retainer easier to remove (may be it's not a good thing to do ) and suddenly 1 intake retainer almost pass through the ceiling 1 intake valve broke at the same place of the first one , just under the lock groove . because i took before the decision to replace the 16 valve by new ones , i took my hammer to make some '' TEST '' . i hit the valves on the steem to broke it : some valves steem broke like glass and some other simply bend.
how can explain that ? is it possible to have different resistence to the stress in one set of valves of the same company ?
Claude

 

I just reread this tred and because my brother is still having problems with the valves and keepers, And in defense of Noel Manthon, I'm wondering if you guys are using brakekleen to clean your valves, there was a post on here some where that brakekleen is a no no on titanium that it makes it brittle? could be thats what is makeing them break

 

Thats a good point Gene, using anything that contains trichlorethylene on titanium will result in surface cracks if the part is heated unless it is washed in an acid bath after cleaning prior to heating.

Another thing to consider is titanium is very sensitive to crack propagation, most scratchs large enough to see with the naked eye could develop into a crack.


Richard Gavle

 

I have used the JT Stewart version of the lash locks and the Manton version. Both worked great although the JT Stewart version were matched pairs so keeping them matched was a hassle. But long story short I loved both of them, never had a problem with breaking valves or dropping them. One thing that the seperate lash caps have is that occasionally the lash cap falls off the valve and the valve stem gets beat up. Never had that problem with the lash locks. By the way- I don't work for Manton or JT Stewart. Dave Germain

 

I have many customers in Pro classes that use the Square or "GM" style keeper groove without any problems, Many top engine builders still use this lock groove combo and refuse to switch. It is probably more of a personal preferance of which design to use, the Square groove or bead lock groove. Ken

 

Thanks for all the input, now back to the question, dose anyone use BREAKKLEEN to clean the ti. valves? Just getting an idea of whats causing the problem, or must we start changing the valves like the rod's ? This is starting to get more expensive every year. not that it's not already, I do like the idea of the lash locks, just don't like the way they fit together, my theory is if they touch each other when they are assembled the taper in the retainer will not let them squeeze together, if in fact thats whats causing the valve to snap off, or the brakekleen is getting into the scratches and causing it to crack and break. now I'm thinking maybe the ti. retainers and the ti. valve during assembly and disassembly are causing the scratches, maybe go back to alum. retainers or just go back to the old style keepers and retainers, never had a problem with them. please don't tell me that you don't have a problem with this, just tell me if you use breakkleen to clean your ti. valves.

 

valve locks

I think a lot of failure happens before the engine ever starts with some "head guys". They are not assembled correctly! We personally run Victory-1 valves and Mantons square groove lash lock. You MUST read the directions and follow them to the T for assembly. The clearance has to be correct between the valve tip and lock. We did not have 1 single valve problem this year. Granted, we check, double check and triple check everything we do before and after every pass. And remember, every part in a race engine has a "life expectancy" parts don't last forever. Thanks to Victory-1 and Manton for making great parts. Andy Kelley
www.andykelleyracing.blogspot.com