broken rod poll

When you have broken a rod, where dose the rod break the most, not tourking the bolts don`t count, #1 rist pin #2 just above the big end,#3 in the middle of the big and small end.??

 

Since switching to GRP rods, in over 125 runs we've never tossed a rod. The other rods we used to run would shatter like glass so typically was impossible to tell where it broke.

Number one reason rods come off the crank is rod bearing failure. The bearing fails which gives the rod too much clearance on the crank. When you step off the throttle, the load reverses in decelleration and, just like a slide hammer, it pulls the rod cap off the rod. BaBOOM!

Before we solved our EPA oil issue we tossed rods out of 5 engines in as many weekends. Not knowing if it was the chicken or the egg, we switched to GRP rods. The last straw was the last qualifying run at the 2004 Pomona Finals. We set it up soft for the last qualifying session since we already lost one motor in the first session because it blackened the crank. So we took timing out of it, disconnected the bells and whistles and richened it up a bit to keep it safe and it still ran a 5.59 at 256. We came back to the pits happy as can be, everything looked fine, pulled the pan...and numbers 2, 4 and 6 were spun inside the rods...but the rods hang in there. That was engine number 2 in 3 runs. So rather than risk engine number 3 (my last one), I parked it.

After tearing what little hair I have left out of my head, Jay Payne, J.R. Clark and Mike Gruber at Valvoline helped us resolve the issue which has been discussed at length on this and every other motorsports forum regarding the 2004 EPA oil issues. Seems we were the test dummies for brand "P". It cost me many thousands of dollars and several rounds of eliminations. And even though we were a sponsored team, Pennzoil never told me a thing about the zinc and phosphate levels and that they made their racing oils to meet the new EPA requirements so it could be sold over the counter. I became an oil expert real quick. Now I buy Valvoline by the 55 gallon drum.

So, to answer your question, rod bearing failure is #1. Our rods went through hell (literally) in my car in 2004, but once we switched to GRP, we have NEVER (knock on wood) had a rod come off the crank again. They may cost more, but we put 25+ runs on them so it averages out just fine.

***Brian: Due to my lengthy endorsement of GRP rods, please send me my free set of rods per my usual order in the typical manner. LOL.***

 

Randy,Does anyone make a concentrate zinc phosphate oil additive to your knowledge?

We started on the Lucas since your original post about oil and have seen a big difference.

 

Ok, I'll ask for the newcomers, what 2004 oil problem?

I had a quick search fro previous threads but unsucessful.

Cheers Ray

 

Question for Randy?????????????????????

Randy, you stated that you changed oil also,so i`m going to asume that helped also, Question are you balanceing your motor differently now that they rev them upward of 9,500 rpm ?

 

Eli:

Even in the 125% overdrive days we shifted 2-3 at 9,500 to 10,000 so high RPM hasn't just happened for us. To answer your question, we have always weighed our components calculating bob weight and order our cranks accordingly. We don't take boxes of pistins and rods to the grinder to make them all absolutely the same, but we do check to make sure we don't have any way off the scale compared to our averages.

Ray:

In 2004, the EPA mandated that any over the counter (sold in stores) motor oils must meet the SJ rating which, in effect, meant reduced phosphates and zinc. The short explaination is that the EPA determined that these and other componets of the pre-2004 oils were damaging oxygen sensors and catalytic converters in street cars.

In my case, I was on an oil sponsorship deal and NEVER had any oiling problems until mid 2004 when I got my first pallet of SJ rated "GT Performance Racing Oil". I was unaware of the EPA mandated change until it bit us hard. According to Mike Gruber at Valvoline, when the World of Outlaw sprint cars starting running the SJ rated oils, every time their little injected alcohol small block engines would hit 10,000 rpm they would spin rod bearings. That was his first clue that there may be a problem. At higher RPM's the zinc and phosphate additives are critical in that they pull the heat away from the bearing surfaces and continue to lubricate in high stress racing applications. But the larger picture has revealed that besides race cars, street cars have seen issues, too. Car restorers using flat tappet cams suddlenly were having big problems with camshafts going flat in new motors. The blame game started with many camshaft manufactures getting the rap. It was interesting to note that the rate of racers burning up push rods shot way up, too.

I haven't checked lately, but in my investigation in 2004 I found out that BMW's motorcycle division released a bulletin to their dealers saying that any use of SJ rated oils in their motorcycle engines would void the warranty. I don't know if that policy is still in place or not. In 2004, Pennzoil's website touted that Pennzoil's GT Performance Racing Motor Oils now meet or exceed the strict performance requirements set forth by the EPA in their SJ rated oils (like it was a good thing?). The reason? So they could continue to sell it over the counter. It about killed us.

RG

 

What "big difference" did you see? Were you guys having issues? What were you using?

Being a bottle reader I know STP does. I haven't read the label of a Lucas Oil stabilizer bottle so I can't comment on that, but Lucas and Red Line users never went through what we did to my knowledge.

Dennis Taylor just switched to Lucas the beginning of 2006 and supposedly runs the same stuff Manzo does which is Forest's 50 wt racing with Stabilizer and is having great success. I was given the opportunity to pursue a Lucas Oil deal but because of the tremendous help Mike Gruber was to me at the time I felt I should show some class by ordering up drums of oil from him even though it would mean that for the first time in my 34 years of racing I was going to have to buy oil. Compared to the money we spent on ruined parts, drums of Valvoline were cheap.

The EPA has done us racers no favors so it's up to us to keep up with the changes. If you live in an area where the Brake Cleaner has changed due to the EPA and can't stand the watery stuff you get now, have no fear. At any Pep Boys you can by "Electric Parts Cleaner" spray in red, black and white cans. Before the last cans of good ol' Brake Cleaner were gone from the shelves, I compared the ingredience on the labels to cans of Electric Parts Cleaner and it's the same stuff. Smells and works just like the good ol' days! Just don't tell anyone!

RG

 

Randy,
I run valvoline racing 50 in my pro mod. Just wondering what part number/ grade Valvoline oil do you run in your car.
Alan

 

Part # VV852 is the "old, not street legal" product.

 

Randy, We were using Pennzoil , we figured we would just try the Lucas 70 after your posts before about the EPA restrictions, We don't normally take the pan off all weekend, unless we have to make red dust in the can,(check #5 main). the bearings look remarkably better after six runs with the LUCAS.

 

I think I asked this the last time this came up, but don't remember if I got an answer. We've always used Kendall nitro 70. I never noticed any problems, I don't think. We change the bearings every race, which sounds reasonable, or could that be a sign of poor oiling? Should they go longer? Is the nitro 70 we get from an oil distributor the "street legal" kind, or not?

thanks
bryan brown

 

Mark are you running a roots or a screw?

 

ROOTS.....................

 

Randy, Going back to eli's question for a moment, when you balance your rotating assembly for 9.5-10K are you overbalancing your balance factor? I've heard both pros & cons for overbalancing, for vey high RPM, but no definitive answers/findings one way or the other. My guy is suggesting a couple more % for our 3.750/6.900 combo spun to 10K, dry sump. Drag race versus road race. Thanks.

 

I was asking just to see if others were doing what we do, on engines that rev over 8.500 rpm we go to 52% instead of 50 %.

 

Back when we started running alcohol (1990), the answer I got to many of my questions from a lot of fellow racers was "It doesn't matter because it has a blower on it."

Since we were from the bracket racing gas motor/home made pro stock engine days (1970's) and we had a good relationship with Speed-O-Motive and Automotive Balancing Service we were always freaks about balancing our rotating assemblies, measuring deck heights (crank centerline to deck), checking new cranks for correct stroke, main/rod journal measurements (no matter what the box or anyone says), checking camshafts, main/rod/piston to wall clearances, piston measurements (pin, pin location, ring lands, skirts, dome, TDC to deck), compression ratios, maintaining combustion chamber and dome CC's, etc. which we continued to do even into our TA/FC program today. How many people can tell you exactly what they have because they personally calculated it themselves? From what I've seen, a lot don't even know how to check these things. They trust the parts out of the box. Without starting any crap, I will say that more than once over the years we've pulled brand new rods out of the box and found them to be "slightly" the wrong length. Slightly enough to screw up your program because it effects compression ratio and critical clearances. Luckily, the machining process has become more computer controlled so the measurements are very good now, but that hasn't always been the case. And those measurements are only as good as the person who punched them in the machine.

Early on I found out that whenever you asked most people questions like "How much piston to wall clearance do you run...main clearance?...rod bearing clearance?...thrust?...cam end play?...collapsed pistons skirts, minimum combustion chamber cc's?...etc." the typical answer was "Whatever they gave me when I bought it."

All this to say, we consider our bob weight number to be a set minimum. I try to never use any assembly that goes under the number. I personally don't overbalance, and we've had no balance related issues at all. We are close enough that if for some reason we have a lighter component we can offset it with another component in the assembly that may be slightly heavy. At times we do what we can to balance out heavier pieces by light cutting in a non critical area, but I've found from experience that if a piece is significantly heavier or lighter, it's time to recheck the measurements on that item because the chances are strong that the part I have in my hand isn't the one I ordered for my car.

Now, I know some of you might think I've lost my marbles getting all worried about stuff like this, but it has worked well for me over the years as I continue to learn. And I'm all ears when it comes to learning because I certainly don't have all the answers. The more I try to learn and know...the more I realize I don't know. That's me in a nutshell. That's why I like this stuff so much. Ken Black's Pro Stock program makes me want to know more.

A friend of mine that runs Super Comp once told me that anyone can take the parts and pieces from the box and put them on the table to put an engine together, but not everyone is an engine builder. It's like painting a house, you can spend weeks sanding, priming, patching and masking before you finally have it prepared enough to put the paint on. Or, you can just hose off the walls, let them dry and shoot the paint. Both look the same when they are done, but one paint job will out perform the other even though on the surface there is no obvious reason.

Sorry for the long winded post. I haven't worked on the car for a while and I like talking about this stuff (as long as no secrets are involved) LOL.

RG

 

will,
you said your new pump has increased bearing life. how many runs were you getting on them before and after the switch? also, I still want to know if my kendall is good or bad. will it be on the bottle? if so, what will it say?

thanks
bryan brown

 

Heres a link to who took over kendall racing oil (from what iv been told ) you will have to go through all the links yourself good luck.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=brad+penn&btnG=Google+Search

 

rods

love my GRP RODS , STARTED USING THEM @ THE END OF LAST YEAR
& have put em to the test with some really bad tune up decisions , & they havent ever let us down , they measure out just like they where new i also orderd em with L-19 BOLTS a little overkill for an engine only running @ 6000rpm , using the 3600 pro series orderd 2 sets still on first set just put 42nd passes on em & not planning on taking em out soon