re: wacked again

re: tad reps

are we avoiding the question? where were the reps in on this decision? TALK TO US REPS. WE KNOW YOU MONITOR THIS STUFF. thanks.

 

You know I agree my Asian friend... I do very little sportsman reporting anymore, but when I was lead sportsman reporter for Comp+ I can tell you, yearly rule changes do NOT to the sport any favors....

Anyway, enjoying this controversy regardless. Thanks for starting the discussion!

Take care all and Merry Christmas!
~AJ

 

Committee Members

Dave,
"The committee" was not ask for input on the parity matter. Our last meeting was at Indy, and mostly cost and safety were the big discussions. I was told by an official that NHRA would try to hold the speeds below 280 MPH, and that decision belonged to the NHRA rules committee.
As far as the committee goes, I hope NHRA starts utilizing it much more. It didn't seem like we were utilized well this year.
Hope you all have a Merry Christmas,
Marty

 

re: tad reps

marty, do you feel nhra should of included the committee on this? what is the camittees purpose? how is the komitteey adressing this now? tell us your stand on this. thanks

 

Reply to your questions

Dave, Here is my best attempt to answer your questions.
- I wish that NHRA would have taken input from the committee on this matter, but we were never intended to replace their rules committee.
- The commiittee is to serve as a 2-way pipeline to represent the racers opinions to NHRA and to help NHRA comunicate certain subjects to the racers.
- As stated earlier, we were told that the parity problem was not something the commiittee was going to have a say in. We are not a do all solution. We are a communication tool.
- Speaking as a team owner, not as a committee member, I wanted to see the fuel chilling stopped. It's always been in the rulebook, and it is unfair to the teams that play by the rules. But that's my personal opinion.
Gotta get back to the 7 to 5 job now.
God bless,
Marty

 

re: tad

THANKS MARTY. this really wasnt directed at you only. any other combacks?

 

Marty you and anyone else who doesnt understand the cooling of the fuel rule need to call Jim Collins or your division director. It is not against the rules to cool or heat your fuel out of the car it IS AGAINST THE RULES TO COOL OR HEAT IT ONCE ITS IN THE CAR.
When someone doesnt understand the rules you need to call Jim Collins or your division director and find out what rules mean not assume you know what they mean. You make it sound like people cooling their fuel and theres alot of them are cheating which they are NOT ! like I said find out from higher ups before you think you know what you're talking about, cooling of the fuel has been going on for years even before we started racing in TAD.

 

RE: here here

http://www.dragracingonline.com/agent1320/2008/1320-x_12-27.html

 

http://www.dragracingonline.com/agen...0-x_12-27.html
the agents comments are a load of crap. The NHRA made this decision all on their own.
The racer commitee is like having an honorary degree, it means squat to them (the NHRA that is).
Gloria, I think Marty's point is that the deal itself can be open to who ever interpretates it. tomato------tomaato
The point there is that Nitro cooling is a performance enhancer in many contitions, and if it improves performance it can almost be interpreted as an additive, a stretch yes, but it is what it is.
I does bug me that the 2% hit is excessive.
Hopefully the carnage is not to great once the temperature rise in the spring and summer.
Dean

 

Dave,
You're welcome, and I'd like to see some of the other rep join in, because I am only one voice out of seven on the committee.
Gloria,
I HAVE spoke to Jim Collins and my Division Director on this issue. Neither of these gentlemen are qualified to tell us the effects of chilling nitromethane, and I'm not either. However, I work with Chemists and Chemical Engineers every day. It is a definate performance enhancer, but I'm sure you wouldn't do it if it weren't. I try never to assume anything, but I imagine there is no person on earth that doesn't from time to time. The language of the rule is not written very well, and depending who you ask, the spirit of said rule is different.
As Dave ask me what I (personally) thought that NHRA should have done, I stated the I would have rather seen the chilling stopped than a percentage cut. That is not just my personal opinion. I have been approached by both BA/D racers and AF/D racers that wanted the chilling stopped. As I represented the issue you ask me to convey to NHRA this year, I also represented these other racers issue.
Not going to get into any huge arguements here.
I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas.
God bless,
Marty

 

Fuel 101

FUEL 101

Fuel + AIR at the correct raito makes engergy (BTUS) power is another way to look at BTU's.

Engine Air Flow (cfm) lbs of air (lbs) A/F Ratio Pounds of Fuel (lbs) Energy Content of Fuel (BTU/lb) Total Thermal Energy (BTU)
Gasoline 567.53 42.64 12.8:1 2.89 18,500 53,176
Methanol 567.53 42.64 6.0:1 7.11 9,500 67,545
Nitromethane 567.53 42.64 1.7:1 25.08 5,000 125,412

There is no way that cooling of any fuel alcohol, gasoline, or nitro can cause it to change the amount of energy that it posesses. The table above shows you that 1 LB/Nitro contains 5000BTUS of energy even if you froze it to 0 degrees kelvin (-315 degrees) you would still not be able to get more than 5000 BTU's per pound. Cooling the fuel does not make power as many have eluded to. As you can see from the table above ntiro actually posesses the least energy per lb, gasoline being the highest. Where nitro shines is in the fact that the total thermal energy posessesed for a given a/f ratio it is the highest. It in effect a chemical super charger.

While I am not a research chemist I am a professional engineer and fully understand the chemical properties of these fuels. Marty perhpas you could have your chemists that you work with look at this post and enlighten me if I am wrong.

What we really need to be spending our time and effort on is convincing the NHRA to allow us the racers to fix the parity problem, so we still have some cars racing. I for one have already contacted my DD and am planning to pursue this after the holidays. I would encourage everyone else to do the same. I believe the racers can police our own ranks with respect to parity but not if NHRA continues to handcuff the class.

Merry XMAS to All,
Doug

 

With a few years exp.on the A/fuel racing and other years with Blown Alky,
Chilling the fuel,..and right out of the barrel, the rules are pretty cut and dry.
I do not know how any a/fuel team has been able to get away with it.

The rules say one thing, and only one thing with no written/or printed exceptions. This rule is obviously not enforced.

Artificial cooling and/or heating of fuel prohibitednhra pg.192

I am not taking sides, I am for the racers what ever fuel or combo, but
what part of this rule does any of you doing it not understand,...
FUEL IS FUEL,.
.while at the track this is implied..in the barrel,..a fuel jug,.
or in your tank,..NO ARTIFICIAL COOLING OR HEATING.


Vic Miller
#612m

 

We have ran pretty good without cooling the fuel. I think the advantage is the temperature of the nitro when it enters the cylinder. I for one wish the cooling would be stopped. We did cool our fuel before the rule was changed I think it was in 96 when they changed it. No it says no cooling or heating period. It would be easy for NHRA to police it. They write down our temp. and percentage after every pass. All they have to do is have a ten degree window from ambient temp. 2 percent will hurt a whole bunch of cars.
Merry Christmas to everybody

 

Artificial cooling and/or heating of fuel prohibitednhra pg.192

Amen,
This is what I suggested quite awhile ago. I spoke with an official @ Bowling Green, A Div 3 Race, about staring to do a better job at policing this policy. I was told that this is not an issue as long as it is NOT done on or in the car. I also complained that all the other dragsters were in the lanes and running down the race track, while Richert was still in his pit waiting until the last possible moment, obviously to try to keep the fuel as cool as possible. The first pair of Funny cars were strapped in and ready to go. This is the type of thing that can hurt the class. When the Blown cars have had enough of this, and they pressure NHRA for rule changes to try to effect the Top 10 A/fuel cars, when in turn, it effects the rest of us the most. These changes are not effecting speed as their entent is designed for the big runners, nor are changes in treatment at the track happening for the violators. All of these points are what I conveyed to the official at Bowling Green.

It is tough enough to try to run a 5.39 in this very competitive class in general. Most of us that are trying to figure this out for ourselves have a learning curve anyway.

I would like to point out, as did Marty, if the "freezing of the fuel" is not a factor, seems like it would be a waste of valuable time for those top runners to do so. Maybe there is something behind a good cold one?

 

09 cool fuel rule clarification

it looks to me like they are allowing cooled fuel now
http://www.nhra.com/content/general.asp?articleid=17519

So you can empty that 55 gallon drum right into a frosty machine in your trailer. and then spoon it out into your fuel tank.

 

not if it uses ice, freon, etc...
i guess etc means ammonia or any thing else to make it colder

 

Doug, maybe your looking at it from the wrong angle. Your right, a pound is a pound. But volume of the space it's contained in would change with temperature. All things condense or contract with temperature reduction except water (God thing ya know for the fish). So with chilling you would have more energy (same pound) in a smaller size.
I've never fooled around with nitro so I'm certainly know expert. But I think there is more to the benefits of chilling the nitro than just a volume increase. I would suspect it has something to do with volatility suppression. Maybe changing it's sensitivity to detonate. It would certainly help to control the beast, if in fact chilling the fuel helps in that area.....just guessing of course.

Blessings..........Ron Clevenger.

 

the examples they used (highlighted in red) are on board cooling devices, Does not look like they will be policing your trailer, Just whats on the car,

 

Im by no means a fuel chemist or anything but basics- wouldnt droping the fuel temp also decrease the air temp inside the motor changing the air density altitude ie mine shaft type stuff.. now i realize on a blown motor the trick would be to decress air temp after the blower as they increase the temp, thus the coated blower theory-- although any way you look at it , its a bad deal all around for dragsters... Thanks Mitch