Cost of TAD: Blown vs A/F - Real world discussion

First off, I'd like to note I want this thread to be an objective discussion on the difference in costs. I don't want it to be a "I think you're wrong and stupid" type thread.

That being said, I'm not trying to call out the A/F racers out there, but I'd like to have a real world discussion on the cost of running a competitive TAD.

This has been discussed on here before, but I'd like to see if we can get a clean thread and find out, just where the savings is.

What I'm trying to quantify here is it cheaper for a blown team to go A/F because they go from hurting motors to not hurting motors, or is it cheaper to go from not blowing up blown motors to not blowing up a/f motors.

Will the concensus be blowing up blown motors necessary to compete in BAD?

I've never signed the checks on either operation, but I've crew chiefed both. I've ran line item costs on both, I've seen the parts it takes to run both.

In a perfect world where you don't blow motors up with either combination, the A/Fueler may be marginally cheaper at best.

With the blown car, the big cost is rpm related items. 20 runs out of rods/pistons seems to be the norm, plus or minus a few runs. 40 runs out of a crank. 20 runs out of ti springs, about the same if you run the super steels (half price). valves and lifters are around 40-50 runs. blower belts around 8 runs. 12 runs out of tires.

A/Fuel has it's own set of unique costs. The cost of fuel is greater. You have twice the ignition expense (plugs, wires, parts). You have one more disc and floater, plus the combo is harder on them, so clutch expense has to be close to 75% more, if not twice that of a blown car. Tire life hasn't been that great over the past year, front or rear. Rods go for 40-50 runs as do pistons (average). Cranks probably last 60-80. No blower belt cost.

Without getting into line item by line item cost, what I've seen is the cost of rotating components on the blown car is offset by ignition, clutch, tire and fuel expense of the A/Fueler. If not equally offset, offset in a large part.

That's perfect world. Real world is a different animal.

The blown cars have new overdrive, and as a result a new learning curve. Depending where you end up in that curve will determine your expense. Some combinations out there are harder on parts than others.

On the flip side of that equation, ask any competitive A/Fueler how many sets of heads they carry. Look at how many sets of tires they run. A few years ago you could get hand me down T/F tires. Now they run their own tire, which hasn't been lasting very long. Tire and head expense has become a very real part of the equation for the front runner A/Fuelers.

From an accounting standpoint, if they A/F is cheaper to run, how long does it take the savings to pay for the expense of switching combinations, namely buying a complete new car? One year? Two years? Three years? More? The point I'm making here is at the end of the day when the numbers get run, buying a new car will more than likely make you spend more over the next three years than if you were to continue to run your 'more expensive' blown car. Round wins may be a different story, but we're talking accounting.

How much does a Boggs, Conway, Reichert, Gallant, Hopewell, Rizzolli, Meyer or ??? tune-up cost? How many teams have ran well without an A/Fuel guru coming in to help at some point? A lot of smart people have taken one of the above combos and ran well on their own with them, but many have started with one of their baselines.

It appears the teams running low .20s and teens may be harder on parts than the teams running .30's.

I'll close with the thought that I think it all washes out in the end. If, indeed the A/Fueler is cheaper to operate on a competitive level, it's marginal at best. If it requires a switch from blown to A/Fuel, your accountant will probably tell you you spent more money for several years due to the expense of the new car.

I open it up to the racers out there. The intent is to be a real world discussion among racers on both sides. I believe we're all responsible adults here that can explain why someone's viewpoint may be wrong without calling them an idiot. I would also hope that we're all responsible enough not to take a dissenting viewpoint personal. Hopefully some good information will be the result.

 

wrong

unless you live around the corner from the track and you have a real skinny crew that doesnt eat or drink, the travel expense portion of any cost per run estimate will eat up most of that figure someone quoted you.

any competitive top alky car costs $1000 to $2000 without hurting parts per run.

i'd like for someone to show how you can run an a/fueler for $400 a pass and win races. i'm sure there's a lot of open ears to that one...lol

 

maintenance

really the between rounds maint is just about a wash. you don't have a trans to deal with on the a/f but you don't have to blow down a blown car.

alot of a/fuelers will just change oil on raceday. it's really preference and how much crew help you have. if you don't lean on a blown motor you can go 3 rounds without dropping the pan. i wouldn't, but you could. if they're leaning on them hard enough to be going through the heads i see some teams going through, i'm sure the bearings are getting checked.

in between rounds, the a/f clutch is much easier. one you set it by feeler guage rather than trying to get a dial to dead on zero. two, nearly every a/fueler will rotate in pre cut discs. there are still quite a few blown teams that recut discs in between rounds. the work you save at the track, you definitely make up at the shop, as there is a lot of clutch cutting to do between races.

 

expense

darren,

there's alot more expense than rods/pistons/valvesprings. personel expenses and transportation expenses are a big chunk of the budget. whoever told you they were racing competitively for 'significantly' less than $1000 a pass...I would like to see where they are coming up with that.

one expense that has hurt all racers is fuel over the last few years. i've still yet to see a blown or a/fuel lane at flying j, so we're all in the same boat there.

i'd really like to hear from an a/fuel racer on this thread.

 

offset

the point i'm getting at darren is that the added cost of nitro, added clutch expense and added ignition expense nearly offsets the cost of the added valve spring, rod and piston cost. throw in the tire attrition the a/fuelers are going through, and i'm sure most teams will come up with something in the $1,500+ per run department.

good points dave. this is what we love to do...pick your poison, nitro or blown. nitro definitely has an advantage with the right tuneup. some people like cucumbers better pickled.

many expenses also are dependent on what level you race at and how much 'fluff' you can afford. the difference between ham sandwiches and outback at night. motels vs toter payments, etc. i think one of the smartest racers at managing a budget is bill reichert. he just whooped the world out of a chaparrel.

tuner/ no tuner, paid vs volunteer crew, plane tickets or drive in crew, etc all play big roles in how much it cost to run.

there's a lot of factors and variables that come into play in the expense of running one of these cars. i'm just saying according to what i've seen with my own eyes, the operating expense may be marginally cheaper IF you get max life out of parts/tires and don't blow anything up.

the a/fueler may be quite a bit less expensive for some teams that blew up a lot of motors, then switched, and quit blowing up motors. just the same way that if an a/fuel team that was blowing up heads and motors left and right switched to a blown combo that wasn't blowing parts up, it would be drastically cheaper. that's not cheaper operating expense, that's less parts attrition.