Future of TAD class

Discussion in 'Pit Buzz' started by Will Hanna, Apr 7, 2006.

  1. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    It appears the future of the TAD class, as we know it, both A/Fuel and Blown may be in jeopardy.

    Unfortunately, there is more truth than I gave credit to this movement to replace TAD with a 6-71 "Nitro" Jr. Top Fuel class.

    TAFC is said to be 'fine' for now....

    According to an NHRA official, this new class is all the rage among Division Directors and track owners.

    To bring some of you up to speed that may not be aware of the situation, apparently there is a movement to create a new class, with a small blower (6-71 or 8-71), to be a 'Jr. Top Fuel' equivalent. According to it's proponents, this will be the ultimate feeder class, utilizing hand me down top fuel parts.

    I ask why and what exactly are they looking for?

    I've heard anywhere from 30% on up on the nitro percentage.

    What's the magic of these new cars that TAD doesn't offer? I don't see them running faster...They will have less nitro than A/F has right now, so less header flames...

    So all of these division tracks are going to all of a sudden start advertising this new breed of dragster? Once the 'new' wears off, how much staying power will this class have to really attract fans with a quality show? How many of these dreamed up new fans will be discouraged from watching this new class during it's first year after watching oil down after oil down as teams try to figure out this new combo? What about the fact it's only a 4 car show?

    I just want to see someone show me a real, definitive advantage over the current class? I don't buy into this deal that all of a sudden all these division tracks that don't spend a dime on promoting a division race are going to all of a sudden shell out the money on this new deal. I don't buy that a 6-71 blower is going to create more fan appeal. I don't buy that this makes it a better feeder class for drivers, crew chiefs and crewmembers than TAD.

    I'm open for real debate. Any takers?
     
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  2. afuelfreak

    afuelfreak New Member

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    All For It Lets Get It On!!!
     
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  3. tjenna

    tjenna Top Alcohol

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    Cost is a key component

    4 car field sucks

    I would think the class might have a chance if;

    The cars need to have fan appeal:
    • Blower!!!!
    • Car should have a crackle...
    • 5.90's at 230

    Next - there needs to be a way to control costs (not sure of the best way):
    • max. compression
    • rpm rev limiters
    • x cubic inch motors
      • x overdrive
    • x blower manufacture and model
    VP spec. racing fuel - premixed

    Something needs to be done, but I would prefer to revamp Alcohol Dragster any day.
     
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  4. 310TAD

    310TAD Top Alcohol

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    Count me Out !

    I chose to chase my dream of running a blown alcohol dragster many years ago. That's the challenge I enjoy. Other than a blown alchohol funny car, I'm not interested in spending my time and money on any other class.

    I think it would be the beginning of the end. If the Top Fuel teams pushing for this think we would be buying all their used up parts, I think they're wrong. The teams that would do it seriously would buy new parts like they do now. Len made the statement that these motors would be "bulletproof". That's about as silly a statement as I've heard in a while. Between learning mistakes, and those who did try to use the pros discarded parts, I think oil-downs would multiply.

    I have talked to half a dozen other TA/D owners (both BA/D & AF/D) about this and they all said they weren't interested.

    Marty
     
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  5. jwsamuel

    jwsamuel New Member

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    The only advantage I can see is that track owners can promote "Nitro...Nitro....Nitro burning dragsters!

    Jim
     
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  6. REEHL EQUIPMENT

    REEHL EQUIPMENT Authorized Merchant

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    This was suggested in Speed Sport News by Cruz Pedregon last year. I'm thinking this was the start of these talks. He invisioned a Busch-type of series where it would be a training ground for up and coming drivers, but in hand-me-down equipment from the big teams. It will be interesting where this goes, but it would fix the afd vs tad problem of parity.
     
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  7. nitrohawk

    nitrohawk New Member

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    Promote what????

    These same tracks have passed on the opportunity to promote 280 mph fuel dragsters in the past. What makes anyone think they are going to change the back gate policy they have been using for years.
    What has them interested at all is the nostalga fuel dragsters that are runing in the 260s and 5.7 range with the 671 and small pumps. This started out to be a cost limiting class but has escalated into billet heads and blocks and blowers that approach the cost of a TF blower. The atrition on them is great because they have reached the point with the small 10 inch hard tires that they are breaking parts every run. This said they do have fan appeal but mainly because of the nostalga crowd fan base. This kind of talk when they keep trying to limit the speed and et's in the TAD class is stupid.
    If they let them run any tire though and any size fuel pump in a rear engine car the some of the same guys who are currently running the NTF class with the Good Guys would be running 280 plus and low fives. Them they would be saying we can't let these guys run that fast as they are almost as fast as the TF cars and our divisional tracks arn't safe enough!!!!!
    You figue?
     
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  8. T.Smith

    T.Smith Top Dragster

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    Was Cruz hooked to a lie detector when he said this? I'd be willing to bet anyone who races a Top Fuel Dragster or Funny Car learns to be a used car sale man to a certain extent. For multi-car teams this would become a very important entity of their racing operation or a pretty good business for someone else.

    I agree with Marty. I can't see the next Joe Blow rich guy who wants to stick his snot nose kid in a TAD car, buy a bunch of used up sh*t from Cruzzer. Why the hell would he do that if he can afford to buy new? I'm sure that Joe Blow rich guy will fly in some tuner who'll just melt the f**king pistons outta all this sh*t anyways...new or used.

    If it's such a f'ing great idea, why don't some of these multi-car teams and NHRA put some of these cars together and race 'em for a couple years and then tell us if it's a good idea or not.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
  9. Dave Koehler

    Dave Koehler Member

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    I have no dog in this hunt so don't shoot but the blown jr fuel class is the dumbest idea I have heard lately from a business stand point.

    I don't see the VRA guys jumping in. This is a west coast deal and they already spend too much money killing their stuff. Travel and stepping it up would make it a tough decision. Besides, most of these guys have zero interest in a NHRA RED. It's the "FED is the real race car" thinking. And there is not that many of them to begin with. I just don't see a mass exodus to join the new deal.

    IF NHRA really wants to go this all nitro route it would be simpler to just delete the dwindling blown alky group like they did with all the other cool and odd ball combinations that made this class so much fun. The class would be injected nitro only. Simple in that the cars are already in place and it solves the parity question. An Injected nitro only class would be the modern version of the old jr fuel class.
    This makes more sense to me than adding a blower and a whole new set of rules, expense and complications and then wait 2 years to see if it builds up enough car count to justify it. Can you say pro stock truck if it doesn't pan out? I think the blower would just confuse the casual fan also.

    Sorry blown guys, as much as I like blown alky, I think we all suspect this will come to pass in some form or another. If I were in your shoes with a blown alky car and wanted to stay blown I would probably switch now to alky Funny Car and not look back. At the least you would have 2 or more sanctioning bodies you could race in.

    Dave Koehler
    www.koehleinjection.com
     
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  10. Woodchip

    Woodchip Top Alcohol Dragster

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    Thats RIGHT on target! Race Junk.com with wheels. The Pro's just want a rolling salvage yard to dump all their used up s*** on! Thats why Cruz is a driver not a crew chief. This would obsolete how many cars? And to run almost a half second slower? WTF are they thinking? Maybe the Pros want the TAD's and A/F cars to run slower and not steal their thunder with the side by side full run somewhat close racing we have. Instead of the 60 percent of the time tire smoking single round wins they have,
     
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  11. Nathan Sitko - 625 TAD/TAFC

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    well that would be retarded...

    If there's any truth to NHRA even thinking about this as an option, that would be incredibly dissapointing. I don't know that they could ever get rid of the alcohol class without a big big big mess on their hands...pro stock truck ring a bell? Granted it is a different situation - but I think the outcome would be the same.

    I personally just think it'd be rediculous - if track owners want to market slower fuel cars, go hire some nostalgia dragsters and funny cars. They're awesome to watch and are really competitive with eachother.
     
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  12. spacone

    spacone New Member

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    In there bid to slow down the fuel cars, N.H.R.A., and or maybe there insurance comp. has this idea to get rid of the fuel cars as we know them to day, bring back the older tecnolagey, ( smaller blower ,smaller engine, ) use the alky guys, see how the fans like them if it works then there are a ton of cars to race in blown fuel class, if it don`t then they got rid of the alky cars anyway, like they are trying to do anyway, and AT YOUR EXPENCE!!! what do you think of that?? Ya i know i`m evil.:eek:
     
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  13. Speedude

    Speedude Speed Demon

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    been a long time discussion actually at least 2 years..
     
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  14. was R4K

    was R4K Member

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    spacone
    Jr. Dragster "a ton of cars to race in blown fuel" Not as easy or as cheap as you think my man- If it ever comes about, the same guys spending 1/2 million in TAD will be spending it in the new class.
    This is not for a bunch of VRA cars with a mallory ign and a 9in ford rear end!
     
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  15. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    Bad, Bad, Bad idea

    This is a really bad idea that apparently has a lot of momentum inside NHRA.
    PRO Owners are really pushing this because they want an outlet to dump their parts.
    Supposedly Schumacher, Force, Pedregons, etc. would build one of these cars. Now do you really think that if they are funding these teams with sponsor dollars that used parts are going to be on these motors? Hell no, it may start with a few used parts here or there, but when these teams start going head to head, they're going to lean on them as hard as they can, hence new parts will be needed.

    Depending on the rules that are developed, existing TAD's - both A/FD and Blown will be obsolete. The A/FD's may have a few more parts that cross over.

    Supposedly the spec motor will be cheaper to run. Who's really going to buy that line with Force, Shoe, etc start running these things heads up....Also, this will be a totally new combo. Nitro motors have been known to throw fits when they're not happy.

    Since this is driven by the idea of creating a parts outlet for the fuel teams....expect a top fuel head to be the spec head. So that means 99% of existing TAD hardware will be non-usable. Oh, Top Fuel guys also run standard deck blocks, so I'm sure that will be the spec too. So that means probably 80% of the blocks in TAD use will be obsolete because most cars, blown and A/F run -.500 short. Top fuel blocks use 3" mains, so they'll want you to run that block, so the existing standard deck blocks will probably not meet the spec. They will be happy to let you use your MSD 44 mag and coil, but you will have to buy whatever spec ignition box they come up with. I don't think a current A/FD clutch will work with a cannon, and you'll probably need a 3.20 gear. Supposedly these motors will get a spec pump, so that fuel system you have come to love and developed on your motor will be useless. Did we mention the blower? You'll no doubt need to carry a couple of them, and a few of those nice $3500 carbon hats....

    But, supposedly this motor will be bullet proof....Show me a bulletproof nitro motor - IN HEADS UP COMPETITION - not somebody's old match race combo that they only changed the oil every 45 races and ran 5.50's anywhere on 13% nitro - Show me this bulletproof nitro motor that all these PRO teams are going to be leaning on - Show me this bulletproof motor that you're going to cut loose someone who's trying to make the show, but has never tuned blown nitro - Show me this motor, and I'll show you the proverbial ocean front property in Arizona.

    ....And as Paul Harvey would say....PAGE 2

    Ok, do we see a fundamental flaw in the plan for this class. A class where teams can buy used parts from fuel teams.....hmm, sounds like the real name for this class should be Dry Sweep Eliminator. Just mandate in these spec rules, instead of a clutch filter...an open bag of dry sweep under the rear end to disperse it's own dry sweep. This will save lots of time cleaning up the parts and oil these things will create.

    Honestly, in this age where the word oildown is more vile than any four letter word you can come up with, do we want a class built on the premise of using hand-me-down parts from the Top Fuelers? It's plain and simple...wore out parts cause oil downs.

    As we touched base earlier....tune-ups cause more oil downs than used up parts. There is no motor combination out there that fits the description of one - being able to use old Top Fuel parts - two - with a small blower and whatever nitro % they dream up. Anyone with any kind of nitro experience knows when nitro isn't right, it throws an aluminum fit. Most aluminum fits come with oil on the track. Say what you will, I know some people point fingers at the alcohol cars as oil down problems, trust me it could be much, much worse, and mark my words, this class will be. Heads up competition will drive people to push the limits with a combination nobody has a clue where the limits are......

    Unless the nitro % is at very least 80% or better, these things won't cackle, they'll barely throw flames. 80% Nitro will be expensive to run. I don't care if you put a weiand street blower on it. Then you get to the point where you back the nitro down so much, the thing won't get out of it's own way because it's supposed to be direct drive like Top Fuel, so it can train tomorrows driver's and heaven forbid you teach them how to shift, that will just screw them all to hell when they reach the pro's. Darrell Russell, Gary Scelzi, Melanie Troxel, Alan Bradshaw, Pat Austin, Mike Strasburg, Scott Palmer and a few others were just freaks of nature, mastering the art of putting it on the high side from a shifter car....

    Back to the point, so you start lowering the nitro mixture and/or pump flow and/or blowers and/or ignition to make this "Bulletproof" nitro motor to go in your new engine shop nestled on the coast of Arizona Bay. Now you have a 300" car with direct drive and a terd of a motor that runs 5.90's. Ok, it gets hopped up and runs 5.70's on a good day, and if it's really, really dark, it throws a small flame out the pipes, and if you listen real close, it pops a little. Oh, and if you stand right over the headers, you might tear up a little.

    If it has enough nitro to cackle, throw flames and run worth a damn, it's going to tear up parts easily, and it's going to be expensive to run. Remember, we're talking heads up competition with the Force's, Schumachers, and Pedregons of the world. Not the ol' lash the valves and send 'r Saturday night special match race combo. Granted, you might run that combo, maybe you'll qualify because there will only be like 7 of them in the country, but if you want to win, just like any other heads up drag racing class known to man, you're going to have to step on it.

    PAGE 3

    Promotion. Supposedly the Division Directors and Member Tracks LOVE this idea. Hang on, are we talking about the same tracks that year after year refuse to promote a show with the heir to the Force Empire, Ashley Force, and her 280 mph Nitro Dragster? Not to mention the classes in general...5.20/280 mph cars that are racing for championships. The stars of tomorrow. The Busch League of the NHRA? Are we talking about the same tracks that would rather profit from no advertising and pure back gate participant profit?

    Who is buying the line that all of a sudden these tracks are going to shell out $10-$20k in advertising and promote a show properly? Ok, even if a few tracks do, when the third qualifying session rolls around and they've sent the track tech guy to every Wal-Mart in a 50 mile radius to buy out all of their dry sweep, and wishes they had TAD back, they probably won't allow these cars through the gate the next year, much less want to promote them.

    Ok, lets say Eutopia Racing based out of Arizona Bay, Ariz., shows up, qualifies No. 1 with Star of Tomorrow driver, and no oil on the track. He's No. 1 with a 5.87/231. Now John Q Fan that follows drag racing in his non-national event market area, he went and watched blown small block Pro Top Outlaws run 3.80's in the 1/8 mile a few weeks ago, and one of those cars are running Top Dragster, and qualifies at this same Divisional No. 1 with a 6.10, which by the way would have put him No. 3 in the Jr. Top Fuel show. Maybe they can use Top Dragsters to fill in spots 6-7-8 because only 5 of these Jr. Top Fuelers showed up. If not, Bob Book's A/Dragster could fill in...Unfortunately this guy goes out in round one of Top Dragster, ran at 12:30 A.M. Sunday night after round one of Jr. Top Fuel oil downs...

    Bottom line if these cars have enough nitro to cackle and run fast, they're going to be an expensive, oil-down laden class. If the nitro, blower and fuel volume are kept low enough to keep it "economical" they're going to be too slow for anyone to care about. If it does have enough nitro, it will probably run way too close to current TF, and we all know the same PRO owners that are behind this don't want another class stealing their thunder.

    From a promotion stand point, the track owners/promoters that are ill-informed about this program enough to buy into it and promote it in year one - this will be a flash in the pan program. Year two will be no more promoted than current TAD's at Divisionals.
    If the nitro is too low, trust me, the sound of a PSI TAD motor will have more fan appeal than a blubbering 6-71.

    Any ill-informed track owner that buys into this needs to hop on Charlie the Trolly and come back from the Land O' Make Believe.
     
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  16. Will Hanna

    Will Hanna We put the 'inside' in Top Alcohol
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    continued....

    PAGE FOUR

    Current Top Fuel technology is designed specifically for, just that, current Top Fuel cars. In a HEADS UP environment that these cars will race in, very quickly, parts will develop specifically for this new class. Heads will be modified. Possibly a modified head specifically for this new class will be developed and sold. I'd be willing to bet it will take more compression, so different pistons will be in order. If you don't mandate a certain bore and stroke, then the cranks won't even be used.

    There's a reason why Force and Schumacher stay on top, they push their stuff to the envelope, and on many occasions, over the envelope. Many of these parts wouldn't be fit to put in your tow truck much less your race car.

    Ok, let's say a few current TAD pilots switch over. How many of these guys do you really think are going to build a car with a used block and crank from Tony Pedregon? Really. Maybe a set of heads, but I'd be willing to bet small blowers will like smaller intake runners, so mark my words, you'll see that.

    Let's face it, less than 50% of the cars in this class will run on hand me down Top Fuel parts.
    OK, if these cars aren't going to run on used cheapie Top Fuel parts, if they're going to be slower, if they're going to be more oil down prone....why do we want to make this class?
    OH, did I forget to mention you turned TAD upside down and relegated some 150 plus cars out there useless and without a home.

    Oh, that's right, this is the solution to the parity debate. No more A/FD vs. B/AD whining to listen to, no more headache, right? Whoever buys into this is truly, truly nieve. The current parity 'headache' will seem like a mosquito bite compared to the massive migrane dumping TAD will become.

    PAGE FIVE

    In any major business decision, you have to look at the pro's and con's and the risks associated. A blown-nitro class that's cheap to run and would create a parts outlet for PRO teams would be great, right? Tracks will love it because they envision these Jr. Top Fuel cars coming to their tracks with enough nitro bellowing out of the pipes to make them cry all the way to the bank, and nice tall header flames at night, right? To a check signing team owner that has more to do with the bottom line of his team than what makes a car run, this sounds like a great idea. To a check signing track owner that wants a big crowd for a small price, this sounds great. I'm sure to some of the powers that be, no more pairity phone calls sounds great.

    Meanwhile back in the real world....this dreamed up class doesn't exist. There's no such thing as an economical nitro class, especially when the reason for starting the class is getting players involved like Force and Schumacher. They could make heads up ez-go golf carts a $250,000 a year deal if they raced that. They're not going to have the massive fan appeal because more than likely they'll have less cackle and go slower than current TAD. Big numbers have always been selling points in drag racing.

    Why get rid of TAD, when we already have a good product to build on.? Promote it properly and it can be the BUSCH series that Pedregon mentioned to develop drivers....wait it's already where the fuel drivers come from. If they truly want to develop drivers and crew members, then why aren't they here now?

    More than likely this has more to do with creating an avenue to sell parts than it does developing new teams.....

    As you can see, the CONS clearly outweigh the mythical PRO's (pun intended)

    And that my friends, is the rest of the story....

    I welcome anyone to prove otherwise...
     
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  17. eli

    eli Banned

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    The N.H.R.A. STING


    Yaaa, don`t Con me, Con Edison;)
     
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  18. M Tigges

    M Tigges TAFC

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    There really serious about this huh?, surely even the most ignorant would wonder how all the alky racers or whomever is going to just start all over again! I think with most of the little things that take so many years to learn as it is would make it to easy to just walk away! imagine doing anything like racing again and now just wanting those first years to go by in a hurry so you can get past all those first little curves again.(that nobody can teach you). Its an exhausting thought to me!


    Im glad you got all that down Will, WHEW right on! Im sure that sums up the minds of most.
    This is right up there with the propane in the PIPES idea of afc's in IHRA.

    waste of breath the years to come
     
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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  19. was R4K

    was R4K Member

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    some good points Will-
    top fuel (90percent of them) run 100 tall blocks and don't run 3in mains. Other than that you are pretty on the money- MONEY!!thats what talks to promoters and sanction bodies- Thats the scary part for the future! Everyone knows that us racers don't make any money- we just sign checks, hardly ever get to endorse them! LOL
     
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  20. bryanbrown

    bryanbrown Member

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    TAD has not, can not, and will not be be the NHRA's Busch series. Anyone can get into a TF/FC car, if they have enough money. How many drivers have been "picked" out of TAD, based solely on their talents? That list is very short, if there's anyone on it. Darrell Russell? He may be the only one. Scelzi, Pat, Lucas, Ashley Force, Shoemaker, Bernstein, Cowin? Were they the best TAD had to offer? Maybe, but that's not what got them in the driver's seat. Guys like Palmer, T.J. Jr., and Weis may or may not be rich and connected, but they had to find ways to fund their own teams when they first got into TF/FC, or pay for it out of (daddy's?) pocket. They didn't move up because they were brought up by the big teams. Speaking of big teams, Force's drivers: his son in law, him, his crew cheif's son, and soon to be his daughter. Shoemaker: Tony, Troxel(not to sure of her family financial history, but I'm guessing they've never been in the bread line). Amato: Lucas. Berstein: Brandon. Anyone seeing a trend? Snake has T.J. and Dixon, and neither of them came straight out of TAD Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but neither Hight(sp?) or Medlen ever drove anything but a FC, and wasn't Dixon on Snakes crew? Did he ever drive anything else? Vandergriff had an article in the last ND, saying the only thing he'd driven before a TFD, was 4-5 passes in a bracket car. TAD=Busch series, I don't think so. Top Fuel is TAD/TAFC on a much larger scale: he who pays, plays.



    bryan brown
     
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