timing retard at speed question

Discussion in 'PSI Superchargers Tech Questions' started by john348, Oct 21, 2009.

  1. john348

    john348 Top Alcohol

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    Does it or not!!
    For you that have a dyno or been on one?
    When you set the timing with a 44 say 32° @ 2500 rpm
    how much retard are you seeing say @ 9000 2-4-6°
    because the process time in the points box or is this taken care of with the box
    better or worse with a crank trigger since they magnetic skew
     
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  2. Mike Canter

    Mike Canter Top Dragster
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    The Electronic Point Box on a ProMag 44 compensates for timing changes caused by the mag and RPm so that your timing stays constant. This is what I posted some time ago on that same subject.

    All magnetos have an inherent characteristic of retarding timing as the ignition load on the magneto increases. This retarding of the ignition is due to the inability to build and collapse the inductive field in the coil at a rate that will keep up with the load of the motor. The amount the magneto is behind or retarded equates to about four degrees total at high load conditions. If a standard magneto such as the Mallory points type is timed at 36* at idle the ignition will be retarded to around 32* during high load conditions. This means if you really wanted 32* under load one had to learn to set the points magneto at idle on 36*. Racers learned to live with that and they just knew where to set them to make the best power.

    The points style magnetos under no load conditions such as idle can produce voltage at a fairly fast rate but when put under extreme loads the rise time of the voltage into the coil slows way down. The ProMag 44 has a much faster rise time for the voltage going to the coil so the collapse of the field in the coil also occurs at a faster rate. When under load this results in the spark being initiated at a much faster rate than the points magnetos. This faster build up of the spark results in the spark being able to jump the sparkplug gap faster when the cylinder pressure is higher due to extreme loading. This in turn initiates the flame front in the cylinder at a faster rate so the burn rate of the fuel in the cylinder occurs at a faster rate and less advance timing is required.

    The MSD ProMag 44 magneto generator still has this characteristic retarding of the ignition as the load increases but MSD coupled it with the Electronic Points Box which contains a magneto timing compensation circuit to eliminate the retard. Automatic compensation is accomplished by the Points Box initially applying retard to the timing at idle and as ignition load is increased the timing is applied back as ignition advance at a rate equal to the amount being retarded. This automatic compensation offsets the ignition timing change by the magneto so the timing remains at one setting in all conditions. If you want 32* at high load conditions you could now set the ProMag 44 at 32* at idle and it would remain where set throughout the entire load range.

    This ProMag 44 compensation feature and the improved characteristics of voltage rise time in the coil is why we now set the timing at idle at a lesser amount of approximately 4* on ProMag 44 equipped motors than we did before on the motors with the points magnetos. If you had the ability to observe the timing of the two type of magnetos under load you would find that the ignition timing on a points magneto is actually the same as a ProMag 44. It is only at low RPM during no load conditions that the timing is different between these two type magnetos.

    Does that answer your question?
     
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  3. john348

    john348 Top Alcohol

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    yes
    thanks Mike
     
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  4. craig moss

    craig moss Member

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    DAMN THATS THE BEST EXPLANATION I HAVE HEARD OR READ!!!:eek: THANKS MIKE
     
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  5. mbaker3

    mbaker3 New Member

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    That's why he makes the big bucks!:D:D
     
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  6. Bottlefed

    Bottlefed New to Blowers

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    X 2

    Thanks for the explanation.

    Richard G
     
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  7. centerplugs4life

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    Mike is the timing retard at high load still apply to modern points style mags like the Mallory 5. Just curious if there has been in advacement in this old made new technology. Thanks
     
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  8. thjts

    thjts New Member

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    Guys,

    Mike's explanation is a good one, but there's a little more that could be added.

    The problem with points is that when they open the current flow doesn't stop immediately. Arcing occurs as the points open and this prevents the magnetic field in the coil from collapsing cleanly. The poor collapse of the magnetic field results in poor generation of voltage in the secondary circuit (in the coil), and therefore a poor spark. A capacitor (commonly called a condensor) is fitted across the points to reduce this arcing, but doesn't stop it altogether. Thats why you get a build up of metal on one of the contact faces of a set of points. Metal is transfered from one face to the other, just like welding.

    The awesome fact about electronic switching is that the current flow is turned off instantly. There is no arcing. Because of this, the magnetic field collapses very, very quickly and produces an excellent rate of voltage rise in the secondary circuit. This creates huge voltages and fantastic spark.

    Points are so old technology that to switch to electronic is the best and easiest improvement one can make to their ignition system, and see an immediate and noticeable result.
     
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