carbon on carbon brakes

another thread suggested carbon fiber brakes would be the fix of all fixes, so I think Its time to tell you a story. Like most of you, I have seen fuel cars with their glowing red brakes stop with no chutes several times. Remember, I'm no rookie.over 20 years in an alcohol seat. Not being a competitive car, the weight savings is 0f no importance to me and when I got them on my car, I thought "fantastic,no more worries about stopping" .In September at Charlotte, I got educated. Having checked out the far end as we always do at a new track, I made the comment "this is nice, I could stop here with no chutes..no problem". That set the stage.. On the first qualifying pass, I noticed the burnout seemed to be hard to stop but had no trouble on the run. for the final pass I decided to heat the brakes in the burn out,dragged a bit early and the car stopped better than ever. I backed up and made that run. 6.10@231
In the lights, I hit the levers and went to the brakes as usual. About a second passed before I realized no chutes. Mentally I was ok with that knowing "with carbon brakes I can stop here with no chutes, no problem". After the way it had just stopped in the burnout, I had every confidence in my brakes heating up and stopping me far before the sand.I pulled that lever as hard as I could never giving up the idea that they would come in anytime now.
As you know, they didn't come in. I covered the front wheels in brake dust trying to stop, let the clutch back out.. engine off ..to help slow, finally giving in to the inevitable and aimed for the middle of the net.
They tell me I skimmed the pea stone like a rock on a pond, hit the net which let me head upward and touch the second net before recoiling back to the ground,
It seemed to catch the wheelie bar as it came down and rolled me first on my side and then gently on my roof.As I hung there upsidedown wondering if there would be fire, It was obvious I had no way out.
The Safety Safari rolled me over and I came out the roof. As the EMT was checking me out, the car rolled by me on the way to the pits.
Thanks to the latest safety by Bruton Smith and Team, the car was virtually runnable except for the fiberglass and I was able to walk(literally) away..
Thanks to Kris and ISP, I didn't have so much as a headache or back ache.This is where it gets interesting.
When I got back to my pit space, Frank Manzo ,the complete gentleman that he is,came by to check on me and asked what happened. I told him this story and he asked me if I wash my brakes with brake clean.
I said not lately and he told me that he covers his brakes in plastic when he gets to the shop because the carbon will suck in the fumes and cause problems.So I got to thinking,last fall I lost a motor in Reading and coated the chassis in oil. I know I washed everything down then.Thinking back, thats when the burnout stopping issue started .
So I went to the Strange trailer and asked questions. The rep asked me when I serviced them last.
Serviced? If I understood him correctly,He told me they recommend sending them back periodically to be baked at 500 degrees for 8 hours to raise the impurities out of the carbon material. I couldn't find anyone in the alcohol pit other than Frank that seemed to know this.
What we have come to believe happened is the heating of the brakes in the burnout brought all the oils to the surface, but there wasn't enough time to absorb them from the surface nor enough heat to remove them so when I applied them at the other end, they had no surface contact and no brake.Combine that with over confidence and the result is disaster.
Because of my experience, I have removed the carbon brakes and installed all new Strange rotors and pads. It never stopped this good before!
I respectfully suggest for your consideration that the carbon brakes are not the answer to all that can happen! There is no one answer! No matter what you are racing, consider yourself knocked out from tire shake or a collision with whatever and ask yourself " do I need Carbon fiber brakes or a containment system in place to stop me in this case?" As I've said for over 25 years, If you drive a funny car long enough, It isn't IF you'll crash, It's when and how bad," Bill Naves Shooting Star AFC

 

Thanks for your info Bill i have now made my dision on if im going to buy carbon brakes or steel i think i will stick with steel.

Ron

 

Thanks Bill for that write up. Sorry for the hairy ride. hope the damage wasn't too bad. Glad you are ok!

I'll stick with my Strange steel brakes too.

 

Strange

I have Strange Brakes on my new car and I have never had brakes this good on anything. On my first burn out I grab the brake handle and they locked up. My old car you really had to get after it to slow down. Now you just go easy on the handle and you stop. I like em Installed By RCF
ROBECK CUSTOM FABRICATION BIG Mike built me the nicest car around this area by far

 

Wow, I didn't know anything about carbon/carbon brakes until this. Other than the price, Randy. I thought just bolting them on was all it took. I check the pads and rotors periodically for wear but that is all. I had heard that you need to warm them up to make them really work. Another point Bill made was that eventually everybody in a funny car is going to crash. I have had my share of mishaps in a funny car- nothing like Bill's or Jason Ruperts but serious enough for me. But I am going to go out on a limb here and say that if driving it wasn't exciting I would be looking for something else to do. If we take all the edges out of the sport what will we do then? Dave Germain

 

I agree Bill, have had both and the latest car I built has Strange brakes with their "killer" mastercylinder (ya the $500 one) work GREAT! I think the better master cylinder has a LOT to do with it. Ive got it stopped with no chutes with these no problem! And YES I agree, drive a FC long enough and you will crash, been there, done that

 

Carbon ONLY for me.

I have been doing this long enough to have had cars that have had either type of brake material. I personally would NEVER even strap myself into one of these that did not have Carbon brakes. As far as maintainence is concerned Scuffing up the pads and rotors should be done periodically, and manditory if you have to "get on em" hard. One of my crew guys, lives the batchlor lifestyle, and has taken our brakes home and "baked" them clean, you really can tell when they have been cleaned this way. Im sure his home smelled like shit when it was happening, my wife would not stand for this. I think it is great that everyone on here is standing back, re looking at their cars and programs, and stepping up their safety efforts. I really believe most accidents in these fast cars are preventable.

 

Do you bake the rotor or just the pads?

 

We have done both. make sure to find a flat surface to "deglaze" everything on. And check that master cyl also.

 

I'll chime in here...I've driven cars with steel on all four and carbon on the rear only and carbon on all four...Ive had chute and brake failures at the same time and crashed a car big time at Englishtown a while back.In my useless opinion all carbon is the way to go. On our new car we have a complete Strange setup with their master cylinder and it stops great. The LAMB stuff is great also and saved my butt and a race car for sure at Pomona.. We also send our chutes back to the supplier every so often to get the tears and lines repaired and get them washed and keep on top of the pop chutes ...dirty oily chutes dont open near as fast as clean ones. None of this guarantees no problems but i think it lowers the odds. But like i said just my opinion.
Marc White

 

Just a question to the drivers here; is there any sure way to eliminate chute failures? Or is that Impossible! Seems like I've seen far more chute failures in the last 5 years than previous. Just a thought...

 

why not use the shoots?

i understand you have a million miles of experience, but you of all people should have known the shoots are on the car for a reason,, the shoots should come out before anything, glad to see you are able to sit here and talk about it now, but i mean comeon, you put yourself in danger as well as all the rescue people that tried to get you out, and all the people in the lanes that had to wait because of a careless descision pro-stock car running mid- to high 6's don't even do that, that was a really bad call on your part and wish you the best, sounds like you learn a new lesson the hard way, can you answer me this question,, what was the reason of not pulling the shoots? to save some time between rounds, why take the chance of not even having a car or your life for the next round?

 

"In the lights, I hit the levers and went to the brakes as usual. About a second passed before I realized no chutes."

 

Fire' em up

Fire em' up, I have no idea who you are but you need to read Naves post again...... He said that after checking the track out he made the statement that he could "probably stop with no chutes". That was just a statement as to the length and quality of the shut down. He did not actually go out and try to stop without any chutes at 230 M.P.H..... I do not think anyone would actually try to stop their car at 230 M.P.H without any chutes. The chutes failed to deploy after he pulled the levers in the lights and then he ran into brake failure. That is what the post is about, mechanical failure not stupidity of not pulling the chutes. I hope nobody else read the originating post and thought my father tried to stop without any chutes. I just wanted to clear that up before anyone else accuses him of putting ANYBODY in danger.

Jagger

 

Carbon brakes

Shi* happens, when possibly one of the best prepared cars out there, the Russell's, had no luck at Hallsville two years in a row with chute failure that resulted in no chassis damage, but new noses and canards twice! New carbon rears were added, and the streak continued the third year (maybe wind or something there), the truck had to U-turn the wall and go back up track 300' to hook him up.
Burnell called to just say "thanks, the brakes are paid for".
On a F/C, I DO have fear of skidding the front tires (which I think might put you in the wall) so I don't feel a need for carbon fronts. I also quickly learned that aluminum fronts are scary.
I personally would not run a car without carbon rears!

 

That's what proportioning valves are for.

I run a Strange master cylinder with Lamb rear and Strange front carbon brakes. After messing with the brakes with a pressure gauge I ended up removing the proportioning valve and they work fine (ask Marc White).

I also installed in each line, a 2 pound Strange pressure check near the master cylinder. It keeps a slight amount of pressure in the lines...just enough to let the calipers retract away from the rotors, but not enough to let them retract so much that you would ever need to pump the handle at all. The car could sit for a month and on the first pull the brake handle hardly moves before the brakes are activated.

 

Bill, I'm just glad your ok

George

 

hi

good to hear from you.how are things? billnaves@aol.com

 

Duh, I'm well aware of that Randy, just not smart enough to properly get the point across that:
if you are trying to kill off front brake anyway.......... steel will be just fine!

 

Carbon brakes

Like anything on the car,, they need to be looked at periodically. FOR SURE if any type of "oil down". Bake in oven,,, ready to go. 2# Residual valve is a GOOD idea also. Had above on Greek's TF car and Bobby Baldwin's TF = NO problems.

Without residual is a lil scary to me,,,,, ground is going by too fast to be pumping the brakes, right? ANY disc brake deal should have them, or built into master cyl.

I guess there should be a note included w/Carbon brakes informing the Novice. Some times we all forget the "new guy" hasn't heard/acquired the knowledge we all take for granted regarding Safety!!

Like washing Chutes,, fixing rips/tears,, and getting NEW pilot chute every year = Cheap insurance. Guy might wash the diaper periodically too (Use the laundry at the Hotel,,,,,,,, he,he)